tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.comments2023-05-11T13:39:42.929+03:00A LetheToby Sterlinghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17433501536951065614noreply@blogger.comBlogger481125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-45449947456400920232014-10-06T12:17:08.443+03:002014-10-06T12:17:08.443+03:00Is this whole discussion an exercise in vanity? ...Is this whole discussion an exercise in vanity? I only received half a high school education but I think the translation should be expressed as "nothing matters". In the final essence, no single thing on this earth matters. This I lay lightly before all.<br /><br />Nevertheless, What an enjoyable discussionAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16218910084253484911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-62536159185897840202014-10-06T12:12:18.649+03:002014-10-06T12:12:18.649+03:00Is this whole discussion an exercise in vanity? ...Is this whole discussion an exercise in vanity? I only received half a high school education but I think the translation should be expressed as "nothing matters". In the final essence, no single thing on this earth matters. This I lay lightly before all.<br /><br />Nevertheless, What an enjoyable discussionAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16218910084253484911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-12050176668977587812014-04-28T08:26:56.464+03:002014-04-28T08:26:56.464+03:00I had the chance to see a bull fight when I was in...I had the chance to see a bull fight when I was in Pamplona. I emphatically refused. But I have to wonder what good it does to strip in protest of bull fighting thousands of miles away from where it takes place. It is the Spanish people who must make the change so it is their hearts and minds we must reach.Mike Lanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05011177556704857441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-46956574108311159772013-11-16T01:51:06.213+03:002013-11-16T01:51:06.213+03:00We have proof of another corrupt police officer, t...We have proof of another corrupt police officer, this racist bastard is in Groningen, Regionaal Uitbuiting Interventie Team. <br /><br />We would like to send you his dirty two faced e-mail he sent defaming my character and actively trying to sabotage my wifes Immigration IND application.<br />Filthy corrupt high level Son of a mother.@?@^%<br /><br />There is a big problem with corrupt Dutch police who will go to any length to destroy a persons credibility and life to cover their own corrupt filthy asses. I advise to Boycot The Netherlands outside of Bigger cities. Most places are racist, xenophobic, foreigner hating shit-holes. By the way, I am Dutch but I am ashamed and want to tear my Dutch passport up in front of the International media. I never expected this of my own country and my heart is bleeding for it. The Netherlands I knew is dead.<br />Ramses Shaffy zingt "vluchten kan niet meer" I disagree. Ajuus Nederland!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-20313250295510797092013-11-16T01:50:39.808+03:002013-11-16T01:50:39.808+03:00We have proof of another corrupt police officer, t...We have proof of another corrupt police officer, this racist bastard is in Groningen, Regionaal Uitbuiting Interventie Team. <br /><br />We would like to send you his dirty two faced e-mail he sent defaming my character and actively trying to sabotage my wifes Immigration IND application.<br />Filthy corrupt high level Son of a mother.@?@^%<br /><br />There is a big problem with corrupt Dutch police who will go to any length to destroy a persons credibility and life to cover their own corrupt filthy asses. I advise to Boycot The Netherlands outside of Bigger cities. Most places are racist, xenophobic, foreigner hating shit-holes. By the way, I am Dutch but I am ashamed and want to tear my Dutch passport up in front of the International media. I never expected this of my own country and my heart is bleeding for it. The Netherlands I knew is dead.<br />Ramses Shaffy zingt "vluchten kan niet meer" I disagree. Ajuus Nederland!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-12795930545719209482013-10-26T15:40:48.332+03:002013-10-26T15:40:48.332+03:002013. But it is a great post from Toby, so why not...2013. But it is a great post from Toby, so why not react.<br /><br />As a Dutchie, I except all points Toby makes, but I feel that a slight mistake is makes sometimes in the definitions.<br /><br />Sometimes it seems to me like you mix up, race and racism. So when somebody dresses up as negro, or Moor, then he impersonates a person of another race. This does not automatically imply racism.<br /><br />Once the role becomes stereotypical, in a play or tradition, it is still not automatically racism. It would be racism in my opinion, if negative stereotypes are portrayed consistently.<br />Now Toby states that Piet is always dumb, but I do not completely see where this comes from.<br /><br />Another way that this could be a racism is because it represents a historical precedence. For exmaple, if Piet would be a slave. But he is not. PIET IS A FREED SLAVE. Hence the role of the Sint. A distinction that seems purposely overlooked by the Piet opponents. Right the story changes often, from soot to Moor, etc. But the tradition has multiple origins. As somebody explained here there is a piece of Nordic sage in it. What people generally agree on is that Sint freed these slaves that became his helpers.<br /><br />Somehow I also feel that in an ideal world a white person should be able to impersonate a black person. And I even have the feeling sometime that opponent project their own racist thinking in this debate. But I do understand that things can be sensitive. Like, the best example I saw was that we still do not except Germans dressing up as Jews (but the thought of conjuring up obvious Jewish characteristics is already frightful). Mmh this I have to over think a little.<br /><br />I think you have to understand about the Dutch is that we do have a certain complex about an elite left that is implementing all their high ideal, without caring for the real consequences on society. As Bas Heijne explains in his NRC columns, the humanism does not live with the people anymore, bbut continuous to live in our institutions. That's why we become so aggressive when people interfere in the culture. Because this perceived elite has changed society so rapidly over the past decennia.<br />http://www.nrc.nl/heijne/2013/10/20/pijn-2/<br /><br />Thanks for sharing your thoughts. All of you.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17440531804909228210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-13453259728592871742013-10-25T00:51:42.711+03:002013-10-25T00:51:42.711+03:00Well, most of the makeover-tips have already been ...Well, most of the makeover-tips have already been implemented. Piet has gained about 75 IQ points, lost the lips, the dumb accent is gone. Except in Surinam, where the local population (black people) still put on black make-up to play the role of Zwarte Piet. But the resistance to change goes deeper: Saint Nick has already lost the cross on his hat due to religious sensitivities of muslims and now we have to radically change Piet as well? I think it is also a case of not wanting to bend over backwards to appease everybody anymore. Thank god for the pro-Piet facebook page, which has gotten over 2 MILLION likes in 36 hours.....Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11080675634910406428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-41501821086905530412013-10-25T00:50:45.740+03:002013-10-25T00:50:45.740+03:00Well, most of the makeover-tips have already been ...Well, most of the makeover-tips have already been implemented. Piet has gained about 75 IQ points, lost the lips, the dumb accent is gone. Except in Surinam, where the local population (black people) still put on black make-up to play the role of Zwarte Piet. But the resistance to change goes deeper: Saint Nick has already lost the cross on his hat due to religious sensitivities of muslims and now we have to radically change Piet as well? I think it is also a case of not wanting to bend over backwards to appease everybody anymore. Thank god for the pro-Piet facebook page, which has gotten over 2 MILLION likes in 36 hours.....Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11080675634910406428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-35891091645268903472012-12-06T22:20:06.396+03:002012-12-06T22:20:06.396+03:00I realise this is a very old subject, but every ye...I realise this is a very old subject, but every year it rears it ugly head and now that I have children who are growing up Dutch I have to confront how I am going to deal with it. I find the connections with an oppressive slave owner and his 'helper' who plays the fool to his master just too obvious, but denial goes deep especially when people don't want to spoil their treasured childhood memories. I have just added a new article on the Amsterdam Mamas website about this whole problematic area of parenting and doing the right thing where your innocent children are concerned.<br />Thanks for this great informative post (even if it was 5 years ago),<br />Ellen<br />http://www.amsterdam-mamas.nl/stories/this-month/on-zwarte-piet-and-trying-to-be-a-good-mumAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-1547552133605333682012-03-26T04:36:34.572+03:002012-03-26T04:36:34.572+03:00i'm agree...i don't care about tom cruise&...i'm agree...i don't care about tom cruise's religion he is a pretty good actor with some amazing movies...i think is very childish to judge a people without even know it them, also he is very handsomeanneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14577807199448333036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-21885903175751069192011-12-09T11:34:44.037+03:002011-12-09T11:34:44.037+03:00(continued)
I feel like I have to spell it out o...(continued)<br /><br /><br />I feel like I have to spell it out or that I need to connect the dots for those who still cannot see the connection. Zwarte piets were only added to the Sinterklass legend in the 1850s. This was at a time when slavery was still legal in Dutch colonies. Now, I will not assume to know the intention of the author of the book (who introduced Sinterklass' helper) but one can look at the context. He wrote it at a time when blacks were mere property and servants. At a time when they were seen as stupid, ugly and were subject of ridicule and abuse. Zwarte piets at that time were not considered to be rich and Sinterklass' equal. Surely not. As time progressed, the story of the Zwarte piet changed to now where he is black because of the chimney. <br /><br />For me, the fact that the story has changed over the years shows that the Dutch know that it is offensive. On some level they know. In addition, I think they must realise that changing the story does not change where it actually came from and it does not change the effect it has. If Zwarte piets are mythical characters, why are they portrayed as having African features, that is, the skin, hair and lips. If it is a mythical character then it should be based on an entity that does not exist. However zwarte piets bear too much similarity to black people. Especially the idea of a Sinterklass on a boat and he is wearing a religious attire with his "black helpers". It is too similar to a slave ship coming to the Americas with the crucifix at the front of the boat and the boat is filled with enslaved Africans. The parallel is too close. This might all be a coincidence but considering the past and the involvement of the Dutch, one ought to be sensitive to the connection that can be made.<br /><br />Why does the piet have to be black? Why does he have to have African features? If you love the zwarte piet for his character and not for the colour of his skin then why not change his skin colour and his similarity to black people. I wish I could partake in the Sinterklaas celebration, but I simply cannot. <br /><br />I do look forward to the day when the Dutch society can say ok let us change this. I hope that they will not be like their cousins in South Africa who held on to their ideals despite the world saying that it is wrong.Scarlet Ibishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09155876061457009085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-18857389644375046472011-12-03T00:46:45.053+03:002011-12-03T00:46:45.053+03:00(continued)
I feel like I have to spell it out or...(continued)<br /><br />I feel like I have to spell it out or that I need to connect the dots for those who still cannot see the connection. Zwarte piets were only added to the Sinterklass legend in the 1850s. This was at a time when slavery was still legal in Dutch colonies. Now, I will not assume to know the intention of the author of the book (who introduced Sinterklass' helper) but one can look at the context. He wrote it at a time when blacks were mere property and servants. At a time when they were seen as stupid, ugly and were subject of ridicule and abuse. Zwarte piets at that time were not considered to be rich and Sinterklass' equal. Surely not. As time progressed, the story of the Zwarte piet changed to now where he is black because of the chimney. <br /><br />For me, the fact that the story has changed over the years shows that the Dutch know that it is offensive. On some level they know. In addition, I think they must realise that changing the story does not change where it actually came from and it does not change the effect it has. If Zwarte piets are mythical characters, why are they portrayed as having African features, that is, the skin, hair and lips. If it is a mythical character then it should be based on an entity that does not exist. However zwarte piets bear too much similarity to black people. Especially the idea of a Sinterklass on a boat and he is wearing a religious attire with his "black helpers". It is too similar to a slave ship coming to the Americas with the crucifix at the front of the boat and the boat is filled with enslaved Africans. The parallel is too close. This might all be a coincidence but considering the past and the involvement of the Dutch, one ought to be sensitive to the connection that can be made.<br /><br />Why does the piet have to be black? Why does he have to have African features? If you love the zwarte piet for his character and not for the colour of his skin then why not change his skin colour and his similarity to black people. I wish I could partake in the Sinterklaas celebration, but I simply cannot. <br /><br />I do look forward to the day when the Dutch society can say ok its time to change this.Scarlet Ibishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09155876061457009085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-13977238878333601972011-12-03T00:45:28.318+03:002011-12-03T00:45:28.318+03:00I am from the English speaking caribbean. I am cur...I am from the English speaking caribbean. I am currently a student in Amsterdam. I did not know much about the Dutch before coming here except the dutch pancakes which I absolutely love. I also admire how dutch people can transport anything on a bicycle. Just this week I saw a guy on his bike carrying a sofa. Incredible! <br /><br />Then Christmas time arrived and I was bombarded with these black face characters. A number of emotions engulfed me when I saw them; anger, hurt, disappointment and sadness to name a few. I was in complete disbelief that in 2011, these black face characters exist. I truly believed that this was a thing of the past.<br /><br />I attended a debate this tuesday where a Dutch historian stated the history of the zwarte piet and where it came from and at the end he said that it was racist, and it re-enforced the stereotypes of black people. If he can see it why can't other Dutch people. <br /><br />As one gentleman stated at the debate, "even though you may not intend it to be racist, it does not mean that the effect is not racist." I have not experienced any form of racism since I've been here and I don't consider Dutch people as racist. I think in every society there are extremes and so far I have been fortunate enough not to encounter them. However one must appreciate that many people including myself are offended by the existence of these zwarte piets. This is not an arbitrary feeling or some sort of conspiracy against the Dutch. These feelings are based on actual historical events which still have repercussions today. For example, at the debate a lady stated that her daughter came home crying because her classmates were calling her a zwarte piet. Clearly some black children cannot enjoy this tradition. Furthermore, an East Indian gentleman who works in the Netherlands stated that at his job, his colleagues made fun of him because of the colour of his skin and called him a zwarte piet. <br />(to be continued)Scarlet Ibishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09155876061457009085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-65416178116153246382011-11-26T16:47:31.019+03:002011-11-26T16:47:31.019+03:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-28371936571484530702011-11-24T18:36:48.080+03:002011-11-24T18:36:48.080+03:00Your having a pavlov reaction. If zwarte piet is a...Your having a pavlov reaction. If zwarte piet is a blackface that doesn't make him wrong.<br /><br />Your just narrow minded.<br /><br />Oh, and sinterklaas is a herectic so if you like him your brainwashed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-35756911294610655202011-11-24T15:43:08.763+03:002011-11-24T15:43:08.763+03:00I am from St.Maarten, my mother is from Curacao an...I am from St.Maarten, my mother is from Curacao and I still live on the island. My college education was in the U.S. and I'm so grateful for that. I have family in Holland (and yes we call it Holland and not the Netherlands just because the latter sounds too official) and I visited once when I was 8 years old during summer. Thank God it wasn't during Sinterklaas time. To this day, my sister and I are hurt and appalled by the Zwarte Piet images and everything having to do with that character all together. Marc and others, it hurts me, as a black Caribbean woman with a Dutch passport (not that it matters) to see white people dress and behave like that. Bottom line Marc, once it hurts or offends people of a race/origin it should be stopped!!! I'm sorry you guys grew up with it and I hate the fact that Curacao celebrates it. Talk about "slave mentality". It's not all in good fun, it's derogatory! "Black Pete"?!!??!? I mean come on, that screams racism all over it! <br /><br />That's my 2 cents. I'm so glad I do not live in Holland because I would be protesting along with the others right now! <br />PUT AN END TO ZWARTE PIET!!!!Caribbean Girlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-15986050770082512562011-11-18T17:06:59.005+03:002011-11-18T17:06:59.005+03:00Hi Solange.
I don't keep the blog up anymore...Hi Solange. <br /><br />I don't keep the blog up anymore, but the Zwarte Piet page keeps drawing a lot of hits...<br /><br />There is at least one facebook group I know of with a similar goal.<br /><br />https://www.facebook.com/groups/211195858952559/<br /><br />They've cited my blog entry, among others.<br /><br />Feel free to use alter or reuse anything I've written on the blog, here there or anywhere.<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />TobyToby Sterlinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17433501536951065614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-31561011080880824802011-11-18T16:46:21.572+03:002011-11-18T16:46:21.572+03:00Nice Blog!
I think we should create a page on face...Nice Blog!<br />I think we should create a page on facebook with: Change Zwarte Piet Tradition'' and make people sign and like it; Then we can take it to the next step...<br />Personally I want to do it but I would prefer the author of this blog to do so...If you give me the permission I will do it and use the precious information you have on your website to do so; Can I?<br />Thanks.<br />SolangeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-74014563245949892942011-11-16T04:24:31.464+03:002011-11-16T04:24:31.464+03:00I live in curacao, an caribbean island next to aru...I live in curacao, an caribbean island next to aruba. Here the people celebrate sinterklaas. The black people here, paint their faces even more black, while sinterklaas is painted white face. Offcourse, the tradition comes from de dutch, but the curacao people welcomed it with pleasure. <br />Maybe you are right, and should the zwarte piet just black his cheeks a bit as if he has been through a chimney. but than kids will recognize the piet as their dad or teacher!<br />And, the word "zwarte" is allready banned on tv etc. in the netherlands.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-60622838714701323402011-10-03T20:04:02.855+03:002011-10-03T20:04:02.855+03:00I learn something interesting everyday or get to r...I learn something interesting everyday or get to read about other people's experience which is why I love reading blogs.<br /><br /><br />* <a href="http://www.spel-casino.eu/" rel="nofollow">casino spellen</a>Fiona12https://www.blogger.com/profile/09939419167967976415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-76692411123267787062011-06-30T01:13:34.487+03:002011-06-30T01:13:34.487+03:00Thanks, newest anonymous. I had an interesting tal...Thanks, newest anonymous. I had an interesting talk recently with a young (white) Dutchwoman who was raised on St. Marten in an all-black class where they celebrated Sinterklaas and she says that nobody ever thought Piet was racist and she was bored of the discussion. Pretty discouraging. Anyhow. I'm getting my nerves up to talk to school administrators / the parents' organizing committee at my son's school. Funny how professionally (as a reporter) I can ask tough questions, but in this scenario I feel the social pressure against challenging the Piet paradigm pretty strongly.Toby Sterlinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17433501536951065614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-66170614791574946192011-06-27T23:55:37.938+03:002011-06-27T23:55:37.938+03:00Cheers Toby, for a hosting this (most likely unexp...Cheers Toby, for a hosting this (most likely unexpected) lively, heated and lengthy discussion.<br />I guess I should begin to clarify that I am a Dutch citizen, before I'm told to use restraint in speaking ("shut up") and leave the country. I am also vehemently opposed to the BLATANT racist imagery of Zwarte Piet. Some people rightly say that the origins of Sinterklaas and his merry helper stretch back as far Greek sagas ("Its HISTORY!"), but again probably have not read your article. Theres a lot of cherry picking going on in these discussions in defense of a needlessly hurtful symbol of slavery and historic subjugation.<br />The defense of which (in my personal, and again for those who find this important, Dutch position) I find hilarious (and at the same time quite disturbing). The examples are plentiful, but I'll just pick out two. Firstly, the celebration takes place on one day out of a whole year, why make a fuss out of it and just leave it alone? If the event is so insignificant (just that one day) why not forget about it altogether and indeed move on. There are plenty of other commercial shindigs you can dress up for. And the other classic retort, "the tradition isnt racist, i'm not racist and if you think so, get out of MY country". The sheer ignorance and blind hatred is almost unfathomable, but highly entertaining.<br />This is probably not the most constructive post, but I'll add it all the same.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-64917790673891200112011-05-17T16:52:31.295+03:002011-05-17T16:52:31.295+03:00Hi, i live in England and i have seen the same thi...Hi, i live in England and i have seen the same thing in the woods where i walk my dogs. They are the larvae of an ermine moth.Its an amazing sight to see don't u think.The moth is quite small and there are hundreds of varieties.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-52474706587753907652011-03-30T19:09:49.814+03:002011-03-30T19:09:49.814+03:00what about the basic principles of Cultural Relati...what about the basic principles of Cultural Relativism? I don't think you can simply apply modern american values on european traditions.<br /><br />groetenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3464789157260115961.post-79036232341321899142010-12-07T02:24:12.467+03:002010-12-07T02:24:12.467+03:00Toby,
First off, I am sorry to hear of your loss. ...Toby,<br />First off, I am sorry to hear of your loss. <br />Regarding this topic I think I have done my best to explain my point of few. I think you and Anonymous are pretty close to understanding what I mean. Both of you simply don't agree with me on everything and I can live with that. (Barely! :D…j/k) <br />This discussion has taught me a couple of things, about my me and Sinterklaas. <br />When I have more time I might come back and get into that.<br />The tradition should change and get rid of all the negative stereo types and keep the joy it gives to generations of small children and parents.<br /><br />This blog is rare in the sense that the people commenting on it seem all very honest sincere and patient.<br />Something I can appreciate very much. Thanks.<br /><br />Best of luck, and happy holidays.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00034900898315965306noreply@blogger.com